Are Humans Wired for Monogamy or Conditioned?

So this episode, we're gonna pose the core question.

Are humans biologically designed to be with one person forever, or is monogamy a social invention?

We're gonna set the stage with how culturally central monogamy is.

Marriage, religion, and tradition, the science, the.

Stats, and some uncomfortable truths.

It's like my favorite Chris Rock joke.

Men are only as faithful as their options.

Welcome to Come Out Swinging, a raw.

Real look at modern relationships.

I'm Dave Arena.

And I'm Victoria Arena.

We've been together nearly 30 years, married and swinging for more than 22.

We're starting this podcast now because for too long, fear kept us from living authentically, from being open about who we are and what our relationship actually looks like.

Maybe this is our modern day scarlet.

Letter, but we're here to be both the example and the invitation to help others own their desires and question the scripts we've all been handed.

What's broken in today's relationships?

Is monogamy even natural for humans?

And could the secret a relationship that doesn't drain your soul be owning other people?

This show explores how love, sex, and identity often buckle under the weight of societal expectations, especially monogamy.

Subscribe to Coming Out Swinging, the podcast that redefines couple goals straight from the OGs.

Okay, I'm excited about today because I did some research.

Chat gbt.

No, we are talking about monogamy.

And is it natural for humans to be monogamous?

I say no.

Okay, you say no.

I just say no.

Yeah.

You wouldn't have said that when we were first together.

I would not have.

Either would I.

But we're gonna look at why humans paired off.

Well, why don't we get into that first?

Why humans paired off to begin with.

Like the origin of monogamy.

Okay, it wasn't about love.

Spoiler.

Got to be like some Little House in the Prairie crap, right?

Well, I think it's before that.

Okay, okay.

So parental investment was one of the reasons.

So human babies are born extremely helpless.

Two parents equals better survival.

That was one of the reasons.

Oh, that's like caveman shit.

Yeah.

Resource sharing.

Early pair bonds helped spread foot labor.

Hunter and gather and protect children.

Okay, makes sense.

Paternity, certainty.

Men sticking around meant more investment, but also control.

Got their livestock.

Right.

I'll trade you for a cow.

Marriage as control.

Over time, it became a social contract.

Property, inheritance, alliances.

Not a love story.

Now, that's pretty interesting.

And we've talked about that even in the past a little bit.

Right?

Like, we see that, right?

It feels like A contract.

When we look at a lot of.

Couples, it really does.

You know what?

It's really weird.

I don't know why I'm thinking about this, but especially if a couple looks like they don't belong together, it looks even more contracted.

Like the ones that look like brother and sister.

Yeah.

Like, you know, there's, you know, everybody knows that one couple, they kind of look alike, they kind of act, and then you're like, they're a little too.

Like they don't really belong together.

You know, it's just like a contract they've got to be together for.

Or the one where you're like, I don't know.

I just get like super duper.

Nothing wrong with this.

I'm not saying anything's wrong with this.

Just saying you get super duper.

Like, she is full on in to women only, and he is full on in the men only.

But they're a couple, right?

He's gay, she's lesbian.

You know that.

I'm not even talking about those extreme examples.

I'm talking about, like, what we always talk about, where they look like they're just like, hey, we got married because we thought that's what we were supposed to do.

And we're just.

Every day is like the same.

I don't know why that jumps out into my head.

No, you're.

But, yeah, like, you're right.

You know, contracted couples like you, there's so many other ones, but like, yeah, then you've got the ones that just, you know, they're living through, just going through the moves of the marriage.

Maybe no one will know what we're talking about, but we know both of those types of couples.

The look alike brother and sister and the gay couple, Ambiguously gay married couple.

Married couple.

But when I hear, when I heard the word contract, I'm like, yes, that's totally what we talk about when it's like, it looks like, okay, you guys just got married because you thought that's what you were supposed to do, and now you're living life and you're doing everything for the kids and you're freaking miserable and you're just going about it.

Yeah, they're just literally staying in the contract.

Yeah.

Okay, so how about the monogamy struggle, modern marriage and divorce?

So we're going to get into the divorce rates.

I thought it was actually high.

I mean, I guess they say about 50%, 41% of first marriages end in divorce, 60% of second marriages, and 73rd, 73% of third marriages.

Why are you Point at us stuff.

So here's the core breakdown, the three root causes.

73% is lack of commitment, 55% is infidelity, and 45% is unrealistic, unrealistic expectations.

Now, lack of commitment and unrealistic expectations are kind of a little broad or vaguer, but I think, I think all three of those could be what we're talking about.

Right.

Because either you're.

You're really not committed to what you say you're committed to and you're off doing things you shouldn't be doing.

Right.

Infidelity.

We know what that is.

And I think unrealistic expectations is really the big one because I think, I think when we talk about monogamy, we're talking about.

It always feels to me.

And like I said, I'm not, I'm not one that likes to.

I don't want to justify shitty behavior and say, like, people should be cheating or whatever.

But I do think unrealistic expectations are like, you get into this marriage and it's a human being you're involved with and you're expecting them to, like, toe the line, be perfect all the time.

And if they slip up or do something stupid or do something like we're saying is probably natural to humans, like, you put them in the wrong situation.

But their brain doesn't think like that.

So their brain is thinking the way society thinks.

Right.

You see what I'm saying?

No, totally.

But I think that, that.

I thought that was an interesting one because I think that.

And we've talked about this before, right.

That.

And I'm not.

I don't think it's just on the male side, but it's always good to hear a woman's perspective as well, because I know women may be a little bit different, although I heard.

I just heard a TikTok from some doctor or something that was saying that women get bored with monogamy more than men.

Well.

And I think that's why women fantasize more.

Yeah.

Which we'll get to in a bit.

But I think that, like, I don't think these are random.

A random three things.

I think lack of commitment could hide sexual or emotional dissatisfaction.

You see what I'm saying?

Like.

Oh, yeah.

And infidelity is frequently about, like, unmet needs, not really an absence of love.

It's more about, you know what I'm saying?

Like.

Right.

Especially from a male point of view because.

And you know, people always talk about the separation of, like, physical with men.

Like, we can easily separate physical from emotional.

Now, I Don't necessarily believe that's that much different in women because of what we do.

And I've seen you be able to put that wall.

Right, Right, right.

But that's because I've trained my brain to think the other way.

True, true.

You've.

You've done it for so long, you may not have felt that way at first or you may have struggled with.

Yeah, like we said in the beginning, like, we didn't think like that before we were in the lifestyle.

Right.

Because I think that I know that from a male point of view that if you were in.

And this is why I love that Chris Rock joke, because it's literally like either you're unfuckable.

Right, right.

Or you're just not, you know, in everyday life, you're probably.

Makes it sensationalized, but you're probably not getting into those situations.

Like, you're not.

You're not in the, like, teacher conference and the teacher, Your kid's teacher's hitting.

You know what I mean?

Like, all those.

You're just.

But.

Right.

But let's just say that you were.

Let's just say that you were in that situation.

That's where I think it's unrealistic to think that a human may not, you know, they may slip up if they're put in the right situation.

And I think, especially from a male point of view, I don't think that has anything to do with, like, you could absolutely love your partner.

And that's where people go with it.

They're like, oh, well, you must.

They must not love you.

They must not respect.

Like, yeah, okay, I get all that.

But it's like, I don't know if something like that were just a physical thing were to happen and you were put in the right situation, I know I could have that physical encounter and not feel anything for that person and not feel any less.

It was nothing about my love for you or.

Right, right.

You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And I think kind of the unrealistic expectations is believing one partner will satisfy every need forever.

Like, that's a. I guess that's a cultural script that many can't live up to, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Yeah.

According to these stats, they can't.

Exactly.

That's what I'm saying.

So I think it's like.

I think the reality is that, like, a lot of divorces are less about failure and more about flawed expectations around.

Around monogamy itself.

And.

And not only just.

I don't even think it's Just monogamy or just sex.

It could be just the control of someone that you have, or you think that person is like yours or you're just like, there's a lot of other expectations where you think that person is just going to toe the line with everything like you have in your mind.

You are mine.

You are mine, and you're coming back to me in the end.

Yeah, but sexually, if you want to go out and do some other things, let's talk about it.

And I'm going to let you do that more than likely.

You know what I mean?

Like, but I know you're always, you're.

You're mentally coming back to me all the time.

Yeah, but I'm, I'm talking about even outside of sex.

Like, we have our things that we.

And we are an example of a couple who are always together.

In fact, some people ask us, how do you even do it?

Some people think we're like codependent on each other.

Well, only because we've, we've worked from home since we've had our first child.

We don't go out.

We don't really have a lot of girl.

Like, you don't do a lot of girls night.

I don't do guys night.

Of course we've moved around, so we don't really have a lot of close friends like that where that here.

Yeah.

So we, our social life is completely built around each other, but we still have our things that we like.

You know, like, I like my alone time.

I like being alone, whether I'm writing or whether I'm in the computer.

You like to watch your shows and be like, there's things that we can respect those boundaries and even things like motivational wise, like if there's something you want to do, like when you got into the makeup career and me supporting you and doing that, or I have some crazy idea, like, I'm talking about even that kind of stuff where most couples can't, like it's their way or the highway and they have no flexibility and they feel like they are controlling that person.

I just think that never works.

You know what I mean?

Right.

I mean, I think I've kind of always said, like, our relationship isn't for the weak, for sure.

Like, it's, it's a total ride or die relationship for us.

You know, we've had a lot of roller coaster, just tons.

I mean, just in general, like ride or die, but like ride or die sexually, ride or die in love, ride or die in marriage.

You know what I mean?

I think that in.

And I do separate those three things and it's definitely not for everybody, but.

You know, well, and even outside of that kind of stuff like we were talking about entrepreneur wise, like there's always, you know, that always taking those kind of risks and chances and having things go really well and also have the shots that we take that don't work out.

And it's like you, you have to, you have to really be flexible in that.

But what's also interesting too is even though the divorce rate, it is high, don't get me wrong, 41%.

But we've always joked about and talked about those are actually the lucky ones that, that get away and move on.

Yeah.

How about all the people, the bigger group are the people that remain stuck and miserable in these situations because they either are scared to death of doing something to upset their partner or how many have done stuff and they don't even know about it?

Yeah.

Or they've done stuff and the other apartment does know about it and then they just kind of live with it.

Right.

I mean, we'll get to some of those things as well.

We.

Well, here's when you talk about like Fantasy and reality, 22% of men admitted cheating, 15 of women.

Now when you say admitted, I throw those stats right out the bat because that's like that to me, that's, that's always going to be higher.

Right.

That's like your body count.

Right.

Like you, you're gonna lie.

Like, that's whatever.

33% in monogamous relationships report cheating emotionally, physically, or both.

Interesting.

Okay.

But here's the big one.

This is the big, this is the, these are the stats for me that tell it all as far as what we're talking about.

Many 4% of men would cheat if they could get away with it.

And this may surprise you, 68% of women would.

That's high.

So you're, you're close.

I would have never thought that.

Right.

So you're pretty close in numbers.

You're almost at, you know, 70 to 75% break even.

Right.

So that tells me right there, I don't know why that stat stuck out to me.

It's because it's worded in that specific way of if you can get away with it.

Yeah.

So what that means is you're really just stuck in a situation where it's like, I have these thoughts.

I would act on them, but.

And maybe some people would argue and say, well, isn't that the whole point of marriage, is that you're not going to act on it and you are going to be afraid that you're going to get caught.

Right.

And I kind of.

That's what we're talking about there here, though, is that, but is that natural, Is that normal to control a human being like that, to where they're like, this is what they want, but they feel like I'm going to fricking get murdered if I do it right?

Do you get what I'm saying?

Like, hit upside the head.

Yeah, but what do you think?

Do you think that that's like, that's what marriage should be about, or do you feel that that's where.

If people are really having those feelings, that's where it becomes like, is this really natural?

Well, I mean, I, Yeah, I mean, I think it's exactly that, but it's, it becomes a.

Whereas these stats are like scientific stats.

You know what I mean?

It becomes the societal thing.

Unfortunately, you can't separate the two.

Well, I think also there's a personal thing that comes into it.

So what I mean by that is we're saying it's probably not natural that everyone has these feelings and these thoughts whether they act on it or not.

I just feel that if you're having these thoughts, where's the line between that's just natural to have those thoughts and even act on it, or should you be held to some standard that's like, I, But I shouldn't act on it because I'm married or I can't act on it because I'm married.

I just think that whenever I see something like that, it makes me feel.

Oh, it's a control thing.

Right?

So you're, you're trying, I think, here's what I'm trying to say.

When you take something that's not natural like that and you try to put it in a box, it's no wonder these divorces happen.

And even more so, cheating, whether you even know about it or not is probably way higher even.

Forget the divorce rate.

Let's talk about just infidelity.

Even when you don't know about it, that's got to be super high, right?

And so, like, take that into.

It's going to also keep happening.

I, I think, you know, like if you stayed in the contract, so to speak, you know what I mean?

And there's nothing, you know, whatever, and you're not at, you know, but you, you've already acted on it once and then you're still there because that's where you think you're, you have to be you, you, you Know, you're not acting on the, the actions or whatever.

You're.

You're still going to be doing it again, like, either way, like, it's like, more likely to happen more than once.

Yeah.

And I will say, I think there's a difference between maybe we look at things too much through the lens of just the physical, because that's how we approach the lifestyle.

And we think, well, if you just, you know, got in the wrong situation, like, you know, you said this early on to me that, like, you know, I don't know how you.

That you said, you know, my leaks or, you know, my.

I forget how you worded it one time, but you basically, you were basically saying, like, you know, there would be certain situations or certain types of women, like my type or whatever that you, like.

He would have no chance.

He would have no chance to, like, not do something.

And maybe we just look at it through physics.

Because I do think there are situations where, yeah, you seek outside, you know, you seek physical relationships because you literally aren't being fulfilled at home, or you guys are just so far apart.

Like, I do think there are emotional reasons.

Reasons as well.

Right.

I think we're talking more about just the physical.

Like, if you're put in the wrong situation, you could love your partner all you want.

Right.

Here's another one that got me.

Fantasy versus reality.

98 of men and 80% of women fantasize about someone else.

I knew that would be high.

I knew that would be high.

Yeah, you could have a movie star you're fantasizing about.

Let's be real.

Right.

And again, I know that most people would argue, but, yeah, that's fantasy.

When you, when you act on it, you're stepping over the line and that's like the vows you took or whatever, the, you know, the, the marriage part of it.

But I guess what I'm saying is, isn't that proof, though, that it's really not natural to be thinking in terms of one person forever?

Right.

In the physical sense, the sexual sense.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know what you think about that.

It would be impossible.

You know, I, I think I asked somebody once, like, oh, who's your free pass?

Free pass is like the funny thing to talk about, like your celebrity free pass.

Yeah.

You know, I don't expect them to say free pass, you know, Joe Neck that lives next door.

You know, I expected them to say, you know, Michael B. Jordan or Idris Elba, like, those are my free passes.

But like, I, I think when you ask, like, like, they were like, oh, we don't get.

We don't have free pass lists.

Bull.

I call bullshit.

I call bullshit.

You know, like, bottom line, like you, there's no way your husband is not fantasizing about some woman somewhere.

And if you think he's not, you're delusional.

Absolutely deluded.

Well, unless he's one of the 2%.

Right.

I mean.

But yeah, I think, and I think that's what I'm struggling with.

And I think that's really the central question.

Question of this episode.

And I'm not saying we have the answer to this.

What I'm saying is I think we're establishing that it's not natural to be with one person forever, sexually, physically.

And it's backed up by.

Even if it's just fantasy stats, it's backed up by the fact that we all have these thoughts.

Yeah.

Mentally.

Mentally, right now.

The, the argument.

And I could, could totally see where someone who is pro monogamy and pro marriage would say, well, that's the whole point of a marriage is you don't act on those things.

Could see that.

But what I'm trying to establish is, but if it's not natural, I think we're.

I don't think we're.

I think we're dulu in our expectations of a marriage then.

And so when someone does step out, you vilify them.

Right.

And that's the thing.

It's like you, you, you just think it's all, well, they did this to me.

I mean, this is what it says.

I mean, do I think it's because you get people in the lifestyle that step out, they don't follow the rules, they don't open the communication and whatever.

And of course, then I'm going to vilify you.

You have it all at your.

Your whim.

Like, you could have had this perfect relationship.

But, like, what I.

So, so I think there's parts of this where we have to be careful about what we.

What we say isn't normal.

It's.

Is it normal to, you know, want another partner?

How do.

I don't even know how I'm putting this now.

I'm getting all like, sort of.

Because, like, okay, so say we do this for, you know, you and I are into the this world and whatever, but, like, you're not communicating with me, and I find out you went and you were with somebody else without me knowing.

Well, hell yeah, we have a problem.

Oh, yeah.

Because we can.

You cheated.

Right.

So again.

And we, and we've always said that in our lifestyle, it makes it even worse because we literally could have just communicated or asked or.

You know what I mean?

However, this is what I'm getting at.

It says people often cheat despite still loving their partner.

Studies show cheating is often tied to unmet needs, opportunity or novelty seeking, not lack of love.

So I see that too.

Genetic and psychological traits influence this too.

And I guess that's where I'm getting at is if you're put in the right slash wrong situation, however you want to look at it or it doesn't.

I guess what we do as humans is we always think, well, that person doesn't love me.

They, you know, and I guess respect is a different thing.

I guess.

Yeah.

They did disrespect you by not by doing this behind your back.

Right.

But I don't think it has anything to do with the love for that partner.

Like, I think that's what most people can't get past.

Yeah.

And I understand there's also trust things and other things where it's like, well, how am I going to go on with someone where I don't know if they're going to do this again or what have you.

But I just think the personal, like taking it personally that it's like, this person doesn't love me.

I don't think.

Now does that happen?

Yes.

Because probably there's something wrong with the relationship to begin with and maybe they are seeking some emotional connection or they fall in love with someone.

I mean, we're not talking about those.

We're talking about men are not mean.

I think I see these stats coming up on you that one.

Men, 44% want more sexual variety.

Yeah.

And 40% feel emotionally neglected.

Well, but some of these things are.

That's where some of these are.

You can't group it all into one thing.

You have to kind of separate.

And that's why we started off.

I started off by asking about the physical wall, because there's a difference between the things we're saying.

Fantasizing about certain things being put in the wrong situation, wanting more sexual variety, just wanting that physical, like, holy shit, he or she is hot.

And I'm.

And I want to do this right.

And.

And it has nothing to do with loving your partner.

Now when you start getting into like, I'm doing this because I'm emotionally neglected, there's a problem with your relationship anyhow, is what I'm saying.

Like, that's different.

I'm just talking about the purely physical, like, shit, I made a mistake.

I fucked Up.

I got caught in a bad situation and the other person thinking that, oh, my God, he doesn't love me, she doesn't love me.

You know what I mean?

I just don't think that that's.

You get what I'm saying?

No, totally.

So I think there are different reasons.

Yeah.

I mean, and it leads into like, like, you know, who cheats and why.

So you've got like, like, like, well.

You just said the women, so.

Or you just said the men, so the women 40 seek emotional connection.

33% want to feel desirable.

And that I could see because I think that's where a lot of relationships get stale too, where you're, you're just living life.

Date.

Yeah.

You're living life day to day and you're not, you know.

Yeah.

You just want to feel hot.

Yeah.

You know, you want to feel sexy.

And it feeds a whole nother side of that personality of a woman.

You know what I mean?

Like to go get through life, you.

Know, when you talk about, you just said this, 90% of online cheaters repeat the behavior.

Yeah.

That's big.

That's not surprising either because we, especially being in this lifestyle, that's one of the red flags that we see often.

Yeah.

And we've talked about.

And then a fair length, 25% lasts under a week, 65% end within six months.

I don't really know that that tells us much, except for the fact that it also kind of plays into the fact that most people are not doing this for an emotional connection.

Yeah.

Now, of course, that's a little different than what we're talking about because that's not a one time like, oh, I fucked up.

That's more of like it went on.

But even if you were doing it just for physical or for sexual.

Right.

It tends not to last very long.

Usually they get it out of their system.

Like I would think.

Yeah.

Sexually, like, I got the banger, you know, Like I could see a guy doing that.

Right.

How about our closest relatives?

Like what primates tell US Interesting.

Chimpanzees.

98.7% genetic similarity to us.

Okay.

That is like promiscuous mating.

No pair bonding, temporary consort ships.

Not lasting commitment.

So that's in chimpanzees, which are our closest.

What's a consortium?

I don't know.

I assume it's like.

I assume it's like a bond or a marriage.

And they wouldn't have marriage legally.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

You know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

Who knows, right.

Bonobos also 98.7% genetic similarity to ice or sexual society use sex for bonding power stress relief.

No pair bonds.

Everyone mates with everyone.

Well, we know some friend groups like that, they're bonobos and obviously we've evolved from these non monogamous ancestors, obviously.

So what do we do with all those?

Like, I don't even know if we've, I don't even know if we were really seeking an answer or that.

I guess what I'm saying is, and I'm not trying to be right or I'm not trying to be right about it, what I'm saying is, and I think there is a two different camps.

There could be the emotional reasons where your relationship just sucks or you emotionally want to move on.

Right.

As compared to strictly a physical cheating type of thing.

Right.

Where it's like, oops, I just really wanted to fuck that person.

I just fell into her.

Which happens.

So I think monogamy may be socially enforced rather than biologically natural.

I think that's what one of the things we're saying.

I agree.

Would you?

Yeah, I mean that doesn't, you know, I don't know.

Humans are biologically flexible.

Some thrive in monogamy, others in open or poly structures.

So I think that's a good point too.

Right.

Some people are just maybe more wired for it because obviously there's people that can be married.

I mean, sure, there are marriages where both partners are always going to have.

The groups that would want to rebuttal us on this, obviously.

So they're going to, they're going to say what you guys do is not natural.

Right.

They're going to believe that.

They're going to believe you guys are just some hyped, sexed up people that want to, you know, be with other people sexually.

And that's not normal.

That's not a commitment.

That's not like saying you want to be a family.

And you know, whatever.

I think the one, I think the one thing that I always wonder when I look at these stats like this is there's only so many.

There's like they were saying 33% admitted to this or whatever.

What I really go to though is like there's got to be so many more people that either stayed married and they, one or both of the partners have cheated on the other, either with them knowing and they just like got past it or lived with it.

Right.

Or probably more common is how many couples are married or together right now where there was cheating and they do not know at all.

That's got to Be high.

I'm a.

You'd have it.

Have to be.

So what I'm saying is all these stats already are pretty high for this stuff, but imagine where they really are because people wouldn't admit it.

And people don't.

They don't even know.

Yeah.

I mean, it's definitely something to really ponder over.

I didn't expect stats like this.

And it's the ongoing conversation, like, is what we do unnatural?

And that's the big question to end on for discussion.

Right.

Is monogamy realistic or just a cultural expectation we've never fully evolved to meet?

I guess.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it.

I think because it's just.

There's so many factors.

You got the commercial factor behind it all where everybody thinks they have to have the big wedding with the white dress.

And it's supposed to happen like that.

Right.

When you get out, you know, like, you graduate college, then you get married and then you have kids.

It's like the chronological order thing.

When people get stuck.

Stuck and miserable in a job, it's like you're committing to something that you're just.

Because that's what you were supposed to do and you're doing it on autopilot and you're not.

That's what I'm kind of saying is like.

It's that.

It's that when we said the one said about the lack of commitment, that's what it is.

Right.

You committed to something that you're like, oh, this is.

I mean, job's a little bit different because you can get out of that easier.

But the marriage thing, it's so many people will.

Right.

That's what.

Yeah, it's.

It becomes a lifelong thing.

And that's what marriage is like.

It's like, shit, this is forever.

This is one person forever.

Yeah.

And I just don't know that that's how we're wired.

It's according to the stats.

That's not the way it should be.

Right.

Well, I think we've rambled on enough.

I got all my chat GPT stats.

I thought it wasn't chat GPT.

Right.

Well, it's handy.

All right, that'll do it for this episode.

See you in the next one.

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